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Tue, Apr. 22nd, 2008, 01:34 pm
you cannot has safe space. iz wommens.
I am so glad the Public Domain Boobs thing seems to be going away, and thanks to the many people who poked it with well written sticks. I've been fighting off a low level of adrenaline since reading the original post. It made me irritable; it pissed me off; it put me on the verge of tears. Your basic physiological reaction to a perceived threat, you guys, because holy the fuck. A movement for the rights of people to *touch my body*? What the hell game is this supposed to be, real life? I have set aside my job-preparing activities for a moment until I am happy again. Because I'm aiming at a field dominated by male geeks, and shit like this makes me wonder what I am *thinking*. Tue, Apr. 22nd, 2008 11:45 pm (UTC)
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) stevegreen
Sorry, public domain what?? Gosh, I really shouldn't take a day off. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 10:08 am (UTC)
stevegreen
Seems a natural balance. The original LJ post is open source bollocks. Tue, Apr. 22nd, 2008 11:49 pm (UTC)
gileonnen
See, this project is to sexual harassment what Napster once was to music-sharing. I can say that here, right? Edited at 2008-04-22 11:49 pm (UTC) Tue, Apr. 22nd, 2008 11:54 pm (UTC)
odditycollector
*snerk* Sure. I was actually thinking that P2P would have been a metaphor than OS, but even that breaks down pretty quickly. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:07 am (UTC)
brown_betty
Srsly. Open Source? I had this whole rant planned that I think I'm going to call off on account of he has repented, on how Open Source has it's own problems with gender, really, it does not need to be associated with your boobie project which has no conceivable connection to it. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:40 am (UTC)
odditycollector
Ahaha! You can still write it! I would enjoy. Open Source Boobs sounds like a project to design better breasts. Like... maybe they will be detachable? And there will finally be a bugfix for the cold weather/nipple problem? And for v 2.0 we can go for INTERNAL SUPPORT, BETTY! Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:45 am (UTC)
brown_betty
OH MAN. And maybe we could get a patch for the asymmetry problem? But also, the most important thing about the OSBP is that it would be for us by us. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:46 am (UTC)
vito_excalibur
*wants to cry* I want to hear your original rant, please! Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 04:03 am (UTC)
brown_betty
HERE YOU GO: theferret has changed his mind and apologized for his post, which certainly raises him in my estimation, (although there was hardly anywhere to go but up, and the incremental difference between my prior and current opinoion of him might require scientific instruments to measure), but I wanted to say some words on "The Open Source Boob Project." First, I am hardly Linus Torvalds, but I believe I have a basic concept of the meaning of 'Open Source.' Open Source is the polar opposite of "trade secret." It is a concept that came out of computer programming, but is now used in many different fields to convey the idea that the instructions for making a thing may be, (and must be) shared. (If you have not really a clue what programming is, the 'source' is more or less the instructions for making a programming. Um. Let's just go with that, anyway.) For example, the code behind livejournal is Open Source. It's true! Here it is! It might not make any sense to you, (it doesn't make much sense to me) but it is available for you to gawk at. This isn't done just because programmers are a bunch of hippies (although of course, individual programmers may be, and good for them! Happy Earth Day, hippie programmers!) It's done because Open Source code is considered to be more secure, and generally superior. If anyone can take a look at your code, flaws in it will be spotted sooner; people may have helpful suggestions for improving it; and it's just generally nicer to write code for functionality, rather than for secrecy and functionality. You may be asking, "But Betty, what does this have to do with touching ladies' boobs?" That is a good question. Frankly, it doesn't make much sense. Ways in which it doesn't make much sense: Code is not, at present, a volitional agent. It doesn't have rights-- it has licenses. Even open Source Code has a licence. While I have a license to drive, I do not have a license which determines who owns me. You cannot peer-review my boobs. Not simply because I decline to allow you to, (although I do!) but because the concept is ridiculous. If you wish to offer a critique of my boobs, this is not a helpful pointer, it is actually deeply offensive. (I know, crazy! Why wouldn't I want random people judging my boobs? I'm just wacky like that.) Not only that, it's kind of useless. My boobs cannot be improved by the coding efforts of others. Even if I were to interpret 'the coding efforts of others' so broadly as to allow "insertion of saline", I very much object to any interpretation of such as an improvement of my boobs. In fact, I object very much to the idea that anyone but me could determine what would constitute an improvement of my boobs. Ways in which it does make sense: 'Open Source' is terminology which inspires warm fuzzy feelings. Who could object to people sharing things that they want to share? Only Micro$oft, that's who. If you're against the Open Source Boob project, well, you must Darth Gates. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 07:30 am (UTC)
daegaer
I was thinking that Open Source would indicate that the basic item - ye boobs of ye woman - could be legitimately modified and manipulated to suit the needs and desires of the user. Who is of course the man. Which is the most radical idea anywhere and never has occurred in the entire history of humanity. I'm afraid your desire for code-pleasing Boob 2.0 is irrational, as it's the end user who gets to tweak, and tweak, . . . and cup and fondle. ARGH. (The various comments adding that the code must be faulty if it prefers not to be so manipulated is a nice touch, though. Which here means, OH GOD NO). There are a lot of qualifiers in the alleged apology. I think he maybe really has finally got it - but he seems rather resentful about needing to get it. Which is human nature, after all. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 06:09 pm (UTC)
odditycollector
And the vast majority of "end users" would be too lazy and/or incompetent to "manipulate" them anyway? Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC)
daegaer
Wait, this anon was the logged out me. *needs sleep, obviously* Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 10:12 am (UTC)
stevegreen
maybe they will be detachable?Logical extension. Then they could be taken back to your room and you wouldn't have to interact with their owner on any level. Tue, Apr. 22nd, 2008 11:55 pm (UTC)
jarodrussell
I have set aside my job-preparing activities for a moment until I am happy again.Need any help with that? Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:01 am (UTC)
odditycollector
Being happy again? *considers* Lie to me about the asshole ratio in the IT industry? (Alas, but I believe it is necessarily high. I, for example, can be a pretty big asshole when I know I am right.) Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:06 am (UTC)
jarodrussell
Technically, if I made any denouncement of assholes in the IT industry, it would be a lie...because I think I'm the asshole where I work. :-\ Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:26 am (UTC)
holyschist
I have really complicated feelings about stuff like this. I think, after reading the clarification, that they're not after the "right" to touch anyone's body, but it's the kind of thing that should very much be kept between friends, because going up to random strangers and asking to touch them intimately is scary and inappropriate. Applying the terminology of "Open Source" is wrong wrong wrong and part of why the original post makes me queasy. The whole thing reminds me a bit of the SCA cloven fruit tradition, which provides a handy excuse to kiss complete strangers as well as friends--an acceptable way, in that context, to proposition people for a normally intimate act without censure. And people are free to turn down the fruit or to accept a kiss on the hand instead, but I've never seen anyone offended by the offer itself. Everyone knows the rules of the game. I don't think it's wrong, but I think this sort of thing needs to stay in its own particular nonthreatening context. It sounds like the Open Source breasts thing didn't entirely (and people interpreted it as being even more out of bounds), and the way TheFerrett describes it makes me very uncomfortable, because it does sound objectifying. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:49 am (UTC)
holyschist
In the groups I've had experience with, there has been no pressure--people explaining it to newbies are always quick to explain that you don't have to play and no one has EVER given me or anyone I've seen crap for refusing or going for the handkiss. If I'm bringing someone new to a party, I always offer myself as a safe person to offer the fruit to. I am not surprised that other groups are less safe, but I don't think that means it can't ever be done in a safe, consensual context. I am absolutely NOT condoning the original post. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 12:37 am (UTC)
holyschist
Everyone knows the rules of the game.Er, and I should note that there isn't generally pressure to play--when there is, it's because something's gone wrong. Bleh. I can't even articulate why the cloven fruit doesn't bother me, but this breast touching thing does. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 08:24 am (UTC)
daegaer
I was never bothered by the cloven fruit when I was active in the SCA (though maybe that was because it usually appeared at events with an overwhelming majority of Irish attendees, and we could all be sure that at least we weren't sending culturally-wrong signals). I was very irritated by some other things, especially the custom that seemed to be developing in Drachenwald of a man escorting a woman up in court. Just watching it happen to other women made me want to punch the guys in the face (a few guys would basically spring out at the woman, one would take her arm and escort her up as if she were too fragile to get there by herself. I remember one woman who said she had back problems complaining her "chivalrous" escort had actually caused her pain in his self-aggrandising actions). The first time I went to Pennsic, the amount of hugging really caught me off guard - Ireland's more huggy now, though still nothing like the SCA-USA, but really, really wasn't at the time. I wouldn't say it upset me, but it did feel like an awful lot of people were arbitrarily shoving themselves into the position of family/friends-so-close-they-may-as-well-b e-family, and it exhausted me. (what did upset me was that if I ever showed signs of being uncomfortable, I was told to my face - or not so subtly spoken about behind my back - that I was a prude and repressed, when what I was, was, from a different culture. That's part of what annoyed me about the public breast-fondling post - the same insistence that everyone must be part of the same worldview, or they''re repressed. Bah.) I in fact loved Pennsic, BTW, and went twice more :-) It never stopped confusing me in ways, though. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC)
holyschist
I was very irritated by some other things, especially the custom that seemed to be developing in Drachenwald of a man escorting a woman up in court. Just watching it happen to other women made me want to punch the guys in the face (a few guys would basically spring out at the woman, one would take her arm and escort her up as if she were too fragile to get there by herself.Oh, that's interesting--in the Outlands we escort people up in court, but it goes both ways, so it never bothered me. The assumption that hugs are automatically okay kind of bothers me, but it's not SCA-specific. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
daegaer
If it had gone both ways, it would have been fine, but it just seemed to appear out of nowhere, and was very specific to escorting women. I did have a vague plan that if I was ever called up in court when any of the rabid escorters was around that I'd try to sidestep them while exuding an air of narrowly avoiding stepping in something nasty - luckily I never had to try that as it would have been so rude I'm not sure I could have made myself do it. (Instead I physically removed myself from situations where I'd otherwise have had to go up, which sucked a great deal, but kept my blood pressure from skyrocketing). Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 04:34 am (UTC)
odditycollector
The way TF describes it is entirely creepy and entirely *blind* to male privilege and made me unhappy. I don't really think the episode stemmed from evil intentions, just... a stupid idea* taken too far, which can often be just as dangerous. Going around asking strangers if you can grope them? TOO FAR. Trying to promote this behaviour as the way to some sort of transcendent utopia? TOO FAR. I think you're right that the difference is the SCA tradition is one that you understand, in a context that you're familiar with. If members of the SCA went to a sci fi con and started handing out fruit with the same expectations (not that you would, obv) you'd make people uncomfortable. (*I've got nothing against stupid ideas among a peer group, but they usually ought to stay there! I act in all manner of ways with drinking friends or internet friends or etc that would have me kicked out of wider society if I tried to generalize.) Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 08:19 pm (UTC)
daegaer
The thing that gets me about the sort of person who goes round claiming they don't understand why they shouldn't transgress social custom X (where X always, ALWAYS seems to be something that benefits people other than the transgressor) is that in fact they DO understand it. And they're just assholes. (I am perhaps a cynical creature, but damn, I've known a lot of geeks, sci-fi fans, gamers, SCA members and the like for a very long time and have actually noticed that "socially eccentric" doesn't have to mean "asshole" - it's only the assholes amongst them that pretend it does, and then do the full-on dying swan act about how they were misunderstood and didn't mean anything and are Nice Guys and so on. Dear me. There goes the blood pressure again). Like you say, anyone can have a stupid idea - TF defended his for far too long, though, I think. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 04:06 am (UTC)
mechanteanemone
Wow. I'm afraid reading through this has killed a bunch of my fragile brain cells. Ferret and his posse have serious boundary issues. What makes them think you can behave the same way with close friends as with 1,000 unknown convention-goers? 8-o Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 06:23 pm (UTC)
odditycollector
I don't even *know*. *shakes head* I'm rather happy with the internet, though, for slapping them down so quickly. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 04:54 am (UTC)
tigrrrlily832f
I've been reading you for a while, but I've never commented before. Now, not to be obnoxious, but I am very pretty. The most common words that I hear from guys are hot, beautiful, and gorgeous. And it gets fucking TIRING. I'm expected to say thank you like I'm grateful for the flattery, but I really don't CARE if they think I'm hot. My self-esteem isn't wrapped up in compliments on my looks from guys, it's wrapped up in using my brain to make the world a better place. Them talking like I'm obligated to listen and give a shit is just wasting my time, and it has nothing to do with me being repressed. But for some reason, men never seem to understand why I don't act happy about them calling me a beautiful girl, and decide that it means that I'm insecure about my appearance and have low self-esteem. And by "some reason," I mean "patriarchy." And now they want to add this new dimension to it and ELEVATE it? Seriously? So I can make some idiot who hasn't gotten over being rejected in high school feel better about himself? I wasn't hot in high school. And yet, for some STRANGE REASON, I don't think it's ok to go up to random hot guys and ask if I can feel them up because they were the kind of guys who ignored me in high school. It's not their job to make me feel better about myself, and it's not my job to make them feel less pathetic. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 06:41 am (UTC)
count_fenring: Urge to maim... rising....
Wow. Just yikes. As a man who considers himself both a feminist and a geek, let me say that this has made me the saddest in the world.
for (1 .. $infinity) {
&weep();
&scream();
$little_foot->stamp();
}
By the by: Perfect occasion for that Icon. Not socially optimal INDEED. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 08:06 am (UTC)
daegaer
When I read that post I felt pretty much as you did. The sheer scale of the smug sexist view, and the lack of any interest in hearing what any dissenter had to say was just so depressing and enraging. So I decided to take refuge in some happy escapism, and watched a TV show. And what came on my screen? A somewhat lower level of the same male privilege viewpoint . . . which was then rebuked by another male character, leading to all the male characters clearly, actually Getting It and seeing that girls were real people with an automatic and default right to their own bodily integrity, and if anyone wanted them to extend a chance to share that right, the way to do it was to approach them as people and not be a jerk. Which was first very cheering, then depressing again, when I realised that the bright non-sexist spark in the day was because of fictional fluffy gay vampires, hardly a majority representation either on TV or the internet. Bah. Wed, Apr. 23rd, 2008 07:47 pm (UTC)
daegaer
Argh, that anon was me, sneakily logged out when I wasn't paying attention. |